E2A 053: The Importance of Editing with Carolyn Jackson & Olivia Joerges 

Passion and expertise help you write a book, however, when it comes to the final product, you need some fresh (and expert) eyes on your work. Enter the professional editor.

EPISODE LINKS

Olivia’s Website: oliviajoerges.ca

GUEST BIOS

Carolyn is the managing editor at Grammar Factory. As the author of a few books herself, she understands that producing one is always a team effort. Authors aren’t magicians whose fingers pour out perfect words as they type. They need help from a dispassionate third party who will hit the delete button fearlessly and give them the unvarnished truth about their manuscript. But they also need someone who can help find solutions to their writerly dilemmas and guide them down the difficult road to publication. And self-published authors need someone like this – a professional editor – even more.

Carolyn likes reading books but has a nasty habit of re-writing them in her head as she goes along. She’s also been obsessively re-writing signage since the age of seven. Restaurants with blackboard menus beware – she’ll erase that incorrect apostrophe before you can say ‘possessive’! Fortunately, Grammar Factory is a haven for punctuation vigilantes, and she now has a safe outlet for my addiction.

Olivia is a journalist, creative writer and editor and has worn all of the publishing hats! She believes that storytelling is at the heart of our lives, and capturing those stories is an art worthy of perfection.

Outside of the publishing world, she has a diverse portfolio of communications and marketing experience in corporate, government, and not-for-profit organizations. This has provided her with an eclectic perspective in the world of business!

Olivia’s mission is to put her experience to good use by helping other writers get their message into the world. She sincerely believes that books have the power to change lives, and is honoured to be a part of that process.

When she is not editing books or writing my own stories, you can find her hiking the great Canadian mountains, planning her next travel adventure, walking her dog, or savouring a cup of coffee at a local café.

CONNECT WITH OUR GUESTS

Carolyn: Email

Olivia: Email

CONNECT WITH SCOTT

Episode Transcript

Please note: The transcript is produced by a third-party company from an audio recording and may include transcription errors.

Scott MacMillan:

You're listening to the Entrepreneur to Author podcast.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Entrepreneur to Author podcast, the podcast that brings you practical strategies for building authority and growing your business. And now, here's your host, Scott MacMillan.

Scott A. MacMillan:
Today we've got something extra special for you. Not just one guest, but two. And they'd each be pretty awesome guests in their own right. I know you'll find this episode particularly useful because it deals with one of those aspects that are fundamental elements of getting your manuscript published. And that is editing.

My guests today are Carolyn Jackson and Olivia Georges. Both Carolyn and Olivia are part of our editing team at Grammar Factory, helping our authors by taking their manuscripts from word to world class through multiple stages and types of professional editing.

Carolyn Jackson is our managing editor. She has a BA in English and History from Melbourne University in Australia, plus a graduate diploma in professional editing from La Trobe University, and has authored numerous books of her own and on behalf of others.

Olivia has an Honours Bachelor of Journalism with a minor in history from Carleton University in Ottawa, Canada, and varied experience in marketing and communications as an editor in chief of an independent weekly newspaper. Carolyn and Olivia, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining me.

Carolyn Jackson:
Hi Scott, great to be here.

Olivia Joerges:
So nice to see you.

Scott:
Yeah, it's great to have you both here. And you know, I'd love to start by having each of you share a little bit about your career paths and how you came into book editing. So why don't we start with Olivia?

Olivia:
Sure, happy to. So really I have to say my career in book editing started when I went to Canterbury High School in Ottawa, which is the capital of Canada. And in my civics and careers class, which feels like a long time ago, we had to do a project on what we saw ourselves doing in 10 years. And for myself, I saw myself being a book editor. Now from there I ended up doing journalism and pursuing a bachelor's degree in journalism working in that field as an editor and that's where I really started to ignite this passion for editing and this love for helping other writers and journalists grow their voice and grow their creativity in their writing. So that's where editing really began for me and from there I ended up starting my own freelance writing and editing business. I had varied experiences in corporate communications. And when I started my business in writing and editing, that's what led me into the role with Grammar Factory. And since I've started, I'm just incredibly grateful that I get to work with such talented and amazing mentors and individuals who also have a love for books and a great love for collaborating. So I feel very blessed.

Scott:
Oh, wonderful. And Carolyn, how about you?

Carolyn:
Okay, well my path to editing was somewhat different from Olivia's. I really came to it via book writing. I found a niche for myself writing local histories for clubs and community groups and that sort of thing. Because as you mentioned, I have a background in history. So these organizations and individuals were generally self-publishing. So they couldn't afford to hire an editor. So I was obliged, obviously, to self-edit my own work. courses in editing. But that's essentially the way I found myself coming into editing, working with other people who were self-publishing their books. That was my background. So I just really morphed from writing the books to editing them. And of course the type of editing we do at Grammar Factory amounts to almost ghost writing at times because the editing is very Like a lot of people, I think Olivia might be unusual in that she set out to become a book editor, but like a lot of people, I sort of fell into editing via other activities and careers. And yeah, that's how I found myself here.

Scott:
Carolyn, you talked a little bit about different types of editing or the type of editing that we do at Grammar Factory. I think it would be really helpful if you could give a bit of a brief overview of the different kinds of editing that we do at Grammar Factory. I think it can be rather confusing for the uninitiated.

Carolyn:
Scott, I think that would be an excellent idea because it is confusing.
Yes, editing. What is it? How long is a piece of string? The profession does seem to be sort of shrouded in a bit of mystery. But at Grammar Factory, we're very specific about what we do. And we've got several different types of editing, depending on what the client needs. So let me break that one down for you. Top of the pile, which is really bread and butter, is structural editing. Sometimes this is called substantive editing. Sometimes it can be called developmental editing...although we do that too and I'll get to that in a minute.

If you book a structural edit with us, you'll find that the edit is very aggressive, it's very interventionist. We may well leave your manuscript completely unrecognizable from the one that you gave us at the beginning, but let me stress it's unrecognizable in a good way, of course. In terms of structure, we will, if necessary, completely reorganize your book. We might delete chapters that aren't working. We might combine several chapters into one. We might create new chapters out of various parts of several other chapters and leave other parts of those chapters in the delete pile. If you have a process for your subject, a 10-step process, we might break that down to five. We might break down a 12-step process down to six, reorder the steps. The other thing we often do is delete a lot of content. Anything that's irrelevant or repetitive, anything that's not working will be deleted. And in fact, I had a client, in fact, this was, I'm just remembering this was one of my very first clients at Grammar Factory, I actually deleted over 50% of the book. So it can be very aggressive. That client was actually delighted. I'm pleased to say. So once we've deleted half the book, then what happens? Well, not only do we delete the content, we also suggest and map out any new content that we think an author needs. So where an author doesn't go deep enough into a subject, we'll suggest that they go deeper. If the scope isn't broad enough, we'll suggest that they go broader. So that's, in a nutshell, structural editing. The next level, if you like, is copy editing. line editing, especially in North America it's often called line editing, also known as stylistic editing or even language editing. So this is all about the language, it's the style, the tone and the voice. Do those elements suit the intended reader? The changes we make here include cutting back verbosity, so again deleting things, changing sentence structure and word choice, all in the name of clarity and consistency. We don't shift the content around. We don't delete content beyond the paragraph level. So that's what makes it very different from structural editing. We really go paragraph by paragraph rather than looking at the book as a whole. So copy editing is perhaps the most arcane and difficult to understand. As a manuscript doesn't change in really obvious ways, but it's amazing how much a book can be improved just through this polishing of the language. of editing we offer is developmental editing. In this approach, the editor will make no changes to the manuscript itself. So instead, what we do is do a really close and analytical read of the book. and we advise the author via major notes and also a written report of how we think the book can be improved. So the author can then go away and tackle the changes independently using our advice as a guide. So this approach is most suitable for competent writers and authors who might have written a book before. Then finally, of course, there's proofreading, which is the final edit that any book should be given. In a proofread, we simply look for really clear errors, rules that are broken for no reason, typos, spelling mistakes and so on. Sometimes there's a little bit of overlap in the proofreading stage with copyediting but it should really be simply the correction of clear errors. So that in a nutshell is the different types of editing we offer at Grammar Factory.

Scott:
Yeah, that's really, really helpful, I think, for a lot of people, because it can be so confusing. People talk about editing as a thing, but obviously there are a bunch of different types of editing that fall into that. So thank you for that, Carolyn. Olivia, so let's step back a bit. So we talked about, or Carolyn talked about the different types of editing,

Olivia:
Mm-hmm

Scott:
the work that you do as editors. But let's back up a little bit. When you first start working with an author, what are the sorts of questions that you have for them? and kind of how do you get off on the right foot with them?

Olivia:
That is such an excellent question. I think it really breaks down into three core questions. And then we go in depth a lot of the time with authors about details about their book. But first and foremost, I like to connect with authors about their key or target audience for their book. And we at Grammar Factory, as you know, are very fixated on creating a solid avatar or a really well characterized reader for a book because it helps the author and the editor to understand who exactly the book is supposed to talk to. So defining that audience and that key reader is super important. On top of this I think one of the most important things to talk about with an author is defining their goals for their book because it really is different for each person and from an editor's perspective how you change content or like Caroline said, sometimes we delete half of a book and suggest making very intense additions to a book. And one of the reasons this might be done is because we as an editor don't see that their goal is coming through or aligning with what they've written. So from that perspective, it's really important for us to understand what the goal or the outcome is that's desired by the author. And then the third thing that I think is most important is how you as an author want to come across. So what kind of personality do you want to have? What kind of voice do you want to portray? Because this is important when it comes back to your credibility and also how your reader sees and connects with you as an author because you're really building a relationship with that reader. So yeah, those are the three things I think are most important when it comes to discussing and kicking off a call with an author. really getting to the bottom of what their project and their book means to them. That naturally really helps to establish a firm connection with each other. Being an author and you know what, when you're first reading a book, it's really tough to give it over to somebody who you don't even know, you've poured your heart out onto the page and to get feedback, it's a really moment of vulnerability. So having a deep connection with. your editor is important and I myself feel great pride and fulfillment when authors come away from an edit and their book is published, their goal is achieved and it influences people and readers greatly. So I'm super invested in the editors we work with and I think once they understand that it creates an awesome playing field to just collaborate and for them to feel comfortable in achieving their goals.

Scott:
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Olivia:
Mm-hmm

And in fact, I'd love to cue off of that last point that you made around how personal a thing a manuscript can be. And Carolyn,

Carolyn:
Hmm, yeah.

Scott:
I'd love if you could chat a little bit about this. Because I think you're particularly good at finding a balance between the ego and the feelings of the author. But. At the same time, there's a need for you to be dispassionately critical. And you talked a little bit about that when you're talking about the types of editing, having to kind of rip things apart. How do you balance the need to kind of, you know, not destroy somebody's confidence, but at the same time, improve their manuscript?

Carolyn:
Yeah, well Olivia brought up a very good point there when she said, you know, you can feel really vulnerable handing over your manuscript to an editor and it is absolutely terrifying. From my point of view, the first thing I do is... to manage the author's feelings is to tell them that I do know how they feel because I'm an author myself. I've written many books and I do understand how terrifying it is to hand your baby over to a professional editor. It's like sending your child overseas for the first time or sending them off to college or something. Will they be okay? So I can authentically and genuinely tell them that I have been in their shoes. It's also important ensure that they understand what my role is to warn them that my edits may be aggressive in the case of a structural edit and it's good to get their permission just to go for it. Most in fact I think all of my authors say to me yep go for it if something needs to come out you do it I'll be brave and so once I have their buy-in and their trust then we can move forward as a team because it's largely about tact and sensitivity. We're in there to produce the best book we can together. It's not my job to assess or judge their work. I just work with what they give me to make it as good as I possibly can. So there's none of this, oh, your book is terrible, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's hopeless. Go back and rewrite it. I work with what I've got. probably the most, the best way to manage their feelings. is to explain why an edit needs to be made. So why is something not working? If I've deleted something, why have I deleted that? If I think they need more content, why does it need to be there? And I think in some ways, this is the most difficult part of editing, actually explaining why you're changing something. Because editing is really quite an organic process. It's not a science, it's an art. And sometimes when I'm editing, I'm making changes without analyzing them. But I need to go back and analyze them explain to the author why this has been done. And so if they can understand why it's happening, they can see that I'm on their side, that I'm trying to make their book better. And then it just becomes about the book and their ego drops away. They develop confidence in me as an editor because they can see that I have their best interests at heart. And then it really does become a, we do become a team. And the process, the process works pretty well. And the other thing, important to give them praise where it's due so when an author's done something well you've got to tell them and there's there's always something good there's always something good in in every book

Scott:
Yeah, that's I think a really important point to make because, you know, the author is the expert in their area of expertise that they're writing about. And, you know, even if they're not expert at communicating that in long form written formats, you know, there's, you're right, there is a lot of positive there and kind of pairing that with the feedback around the structure and the writing itself is important.

Carolyn:
Yeah. And I think sometimes when people are an expert, they can think that, oh, I'm an expert, I should be able to just pour this out onto the page and it'll be perfect. But it's writing a book and creating a linear structure like that, it's very different from the work they might be doing in their day to day, especially if they're doing something like running workshops, which are a lot more sort of... kinetic and it's a very different process than from sitting there laying out those ideas one after another. So yes, a lot of authors I think make that mistake when they sit down trying to put down all of their expertise. It doesn't flow properly. But that's not because they don't know their stuff, it's just because they've never actually tried to put it down in this format before. So that's why you need an editor to help you do that.

Scott:
Yeah, very good point. In fact, that kind of ties into the next question that I have, Olivia, for you. Some of your previous experience is as a newspaper editor, which of course is yet another medium altogether, another short form medium. What do you see as the notable differences that authors should be aware of between short form content like articles and long form content like a book?

Olivia:
That is such a great question, Scott, because there are actually so many similarities between short form content and long form content, especially nowadays. But if we're speaking explicitly about something like a news article or blog compared to a book, obviously length is a huge portion of that. So if you're writing an article or a blog, your hook has to be very immediate. your title has to be extremely punchy. And I think the key difference between short form content and books is that in short form content or articles, you're often answering a question for your reader. And by the end of your article or blog, that question should pretty well be answered.

Another thing you're doing in short form content is pulling other sources or information to make a really credible argument usually for yourself. So establishing credibility of sources is really important because you don't have a whole lot of time for your reader to get to know you. Whereas, if you're writing a book, it's more so about building a relationship with your reader, which I think is a really important distinction because your reader is picking up your book and you may be answering a question, but what you're really trying to do is change their perspective a lot of the time. or help them understand a key point and kind of get to know you as well, especially in the nonfiction field, if you're working with thought leaders or business people or any kind of expert for that matter.

Yeah, that's kind of the key differences, but honestly, there's so many similarities. You know, like when we're working in book editing, in marketing and production, you know, we love to have awesome, catchy titles for books. And it's the same thing in short form editing. or writing of any kind. So there's a lot of crossover there.

Scott:
Yeah, that's an interesting point that you make about the fact that in a book we've got a lot more time to kind of build that relationship with the reader. I had never thought of that before, but that's a very astute observation.

Carolyn:
Olivia, I found that answer really interesting because I don't have a journalistic background at all. It's always been long-form for me, so that was really interesting. I think pace is a key factor too in long-form. Trying to maintain the correct pace over all those pages.

Scott:
Yeah, that's a very good point. Carolyn, I wanted to chat a little bit about one of your favourite topics, which is beta readers. Many people recommend that authors engage beta readers for their book, but I know that you're cautious about that. Why is that? And if somebody does want to engage a beta reader or a set of beta readers, how would you suggest they approach it?

Carolyn:
Oh, this is a really complicated question. Let me sum it up...

Scott:
Those are the best ones.

Carolyn:
Let me sum it up with a pair of clichés, which you should avoid like the plague, by the way. I think... I think the reason is that too many cooks spoil the broth and you can't please all of the people all of the time. Look, beta readers can be helpful, but you need to have the right ones and you need to take their advice the right way. It depends a bit on who the readers are and it depends a bit on what sort of author you are. If an author lacks confidence, they can find themselves trying to incorporate everybody's contradictory and even when that feedback is not serving their purpose and not producing the best possible because they just want to please everybody and they think everybody knows better than them. So then the book loses its focus, it loses its integrity. So you need to filter that feedback. And if you're not a confident author, you might not be able to do that very well, whereas a professional editor, of course, can do that a lot more effectively. are? Is it your mum, your boyfriend, your husband? They're going to tell you they love it or pretend that they do because they don't want to sleep on the couch that night, right? Friends and family are not always the best choice unless of course they actually have some background in the industry because I'm the beta reader for my partner's writing. I pull no punches and take no prisoners for him. The times I think when beta reading is quite important is when a book is quite technical. So I think it's wise to get it checked by an expert. Last year, if you recall, I did a book on artificial intelligence and the content was really challenging for me. It was also really interesting and we had some beta readers look at that and they picked up on some of the more technical aspects in a rapidly changing industry. beta-reeds can be helpful. And you also need to, when considering the beta readers, you want to choose the type of people who are likely to be your readers because you want your book to work for your target audience. So if you can find those readers from that target audience, that's ideal. You also asked me when the beta reading should be done. That's a tricky one, too. I think probably before giving it to a professional editor process of perhaps trying to incorporate too much feedback is done early, then the editor can take it and say, well, no, look, this part isn't working. Or even just give, another way to do it is to give the feedback to the editor and let them sort through it. But I said earlier that editing, it's teamwork. It's teamwork between the editor and the author. And so when you've got a whole lot of people running around the edges trying to put their can be confusing. I had an author once who described that as having a moving target to work with, which I thought was quite a good analogy. And finally on that subject, I think you need to give your beta readers some quite specific questions. So don't just hand it over and say, have a read, what do you think? Ask questions like, you know, this is my audience, do you think it's pitched at the right level? This is what I was trying to achieve with this book, have I done it? This is how I want readers to feel. Is the book making you feel that way? So try to be quite specific in the questions. Yes, beta readers, it can be a good thing but it's got to be done properly. And of course we can always provide some assistance if authors aren't sure.

Scott:
Very good. That's...

Carolyn:
The other thing too...

Scott:
yeah.

Carolyn:
is that they're not there to correct the commas, so just don't worry about those little grammatical details. It's a lot more kind of big picture.

Scott:
Yeah, very good point, because some of them will be tempted to do that. Good. Listen, this next question is kind of for both of you. I'd love to get into some tips. What are some of the things that first-time authors should consider before submitting their manuscript for professional editing, things that will kind of improve the value of what they get from the editing experience? Maybe Carolyn, why don't we start with you?

Carolyn:
Make it as good as you can.

Olivia:
No pressure.

Carolyn:
The fact is that every time you review a book, every time you edit it, you're likely to make it better. The more you review it, the better it gets. It's not a finite process. Some people believe that they don't have to worry about the grammar, they can make spelling mistakes, whatever, just let the editor fix them. And it's kind of counterintuitive, this, but the cleaner and better a manuscript is when it comes into my hands, the cleaner and better and higher quality it'll be when it leaves my hands. That's not to say that I'm not going to do a lot of work on it, but the cleaner and tidier it is, the better we can make it.

It's also important when submitting a book to ensure that it's complete. That might be surprising, but I have been given three chapters and been told that the other 16 are coming next week. So it's important to understand, especially when doing structural editing, it's that the book has to be assessed as a whole. We start with a big picture and then refine it down. So if I'm given three quarters of a book and I start working on that and a couple more chapters come in the following week, they can completely disrupt what I've done.

I think it's important for an author to know their material really well. Sometimes they do their research on the fly. They think, oh, I need a chapter on this. I better just quickly do some research. to write about something in long form, you need to know that material really deeply. It's also really important, and Olivia touched on this before when she was talking about the long form editing and building a relationship with the author, you need to really know who the audience is, so you need that avatar. So the author should know who they're writing to and they should know what they need to achieve with that writing. factors should be top of mind before they start writing and that applies to anything you write whether it's an email or a book. Who's the audience and what are you trying to achieve?

Scott:
Reader, reader, reader, right?

Carolyn:
Yeah.

Olivia:
Absolutely.

Scott:
Olivia, what would you add to this?

Olivia:
Two things, so Carolyn did an excellent job answering that question, especially when you were talking about assessment. So many authors might not realize this, but manuscript assessments are a thing. Developmental editing is a thing. If you're not feeling confident about where your book is sitting, like Carolyn said, you've edited and edited, and you're at the place where it is the best that it can be, but you're still questioning yourself. Consider getting a developmental edit and absolutely get a manuscript assessment because that will really help you understand where your book sits so you can adjust your expectations before you go into an editing contract as an author.

And then what I would add to this is no matter where you are if you get a manuscript assessment, if you don't, if you are engaging with an editor and you're taking a leap into structural editing or copy editing. just be willing to let your manuscript grow and Carolyn touched on this a little bit as well about tearing a manuscript apart and putting it back together and as long as you're open to that growth and evolution of your manuscript you're going to get so much more out of your edit. It also makes it a lot easier on the editor because as an editor if you're facing a lot of roadblocks or the author isn't open to changing a chapter around or adjusting their difficult to bring out the best book that your manuscript wants to be. So having less roadblocks is definitely the best for you and your editor.

Scott:
Yeah, that's so true.

Carolyn:
Yeah, Olivia, I'm really glad you brought up the point about the manuscript assessment and we can of course do that at Grammar Factory if an author isn't sure where they're at or what they need we can do that assessment. And when you've been working very closely with a book that you've been writing for a long time you can be too close to it and it might be better than you think it is in fact. So if an author's at the point where they're going through their book over and over again and second guessing themselves and double checking things and going through it and through really changing that much, it probably is time for a professional editor to step in. And again, if you're not sure, we can always do an assessment.

Scott:
Yeah, very, very, very good. I always say that it's that iteration where the magic happens. And iteration eats perfection for breakfast.

Olivia:
Absolutely.

Carolyn:
Yeah.

Scott:
So the more times you can be through it, the better.

Look, the last question I want to ask, quite simply, is what would each of you say to someone who has always wanted to write a book but for whatever reason just hasn't done it yet? What advice would you give them? Let's start with Olivia.

Olivia:
Okay.

Scott:
Hehehe

Olivia:
so Carolyn's gonna hate this because it's a complete cliche.

Carolyn:
Oh no, no, no, I love them.

Olivia:
But everyone really does have a book in them. If your goal is to write a book, you can absolutely do it. And I think it just comes down to five minutes a day. Everyone has time in the day to start that book or that story that they're dying to share. And you know, I've learned this a lot from some of the authors that we've had about breaking habits or figuring out how to reach your goals. And as long as you give yourself five minutes a day to sit down and write, even if it's 10 words, even if it's just the title of your book or the first chapter name or the first story will make a huge difference. Just commit to five minutes a day. Best advice I can give.

Carolyn:
Well, I don't mind the old cliché, Olivia, and I do agree with you that everybody has a book in them, but they often need some help to bring it out. So look, if someone's wanting to write a book, my advice is to go for it because you'll only regret it if you don't try. Few things to be aware of. It's harder than you think, but don't let that put you off. I think it's important to do a lot of preparation. A book is a big project, so break it down into chapters. Start with a big picture. Figure out what it is you want to say. Figure out the points that are really important under that heading. Break it down into chapters. Start writing chapter headings and bullet points and start fleshing them out. Approach it that way.

When I wrote my first book, I thought, oh my goodness, it's a whole book, it's going to be so daunting. And then I said to myself, well, when I was at university, I wrote 5,000 word essays. 5,000 words is a chapter. So I just thought of it as a series of essays. So I just mapped out each chapter and then just fleshed it all out, fleshed out the skeleton. So yeah, go for it. It's not easy. Take your time. Break it down into steps. and be prepared to revise, revise, revise. But I think probably the most important thing to anyone thinking about writing a book is to say that if you run into trouble, keep calm and hire an editor.

Scott:
Well put, absolutely.

Olivia:
So good. I love...

Scott:
All right,

Olivia:
so much of what you said.

Scott:
well, well, listen, I think, yeah, look, I think we've delivered on my promise at the beginning of this episode. I know this was incredibly useful, especially for the first time authors in the audience. So thank you both again for sharing your time, expertise and experience with us.

Carolyn:
No problem, Scott. Happy to do it. It's been a pleasure.

Olivia:
Complete pleasure, thanks so much, it was loads of fun.

Scott:
As we wrap up this episode of Entrepreneur to Author, remember this. Now is the time. Time to write, time to publish, and time to grow. I'm Scott MacMillan. Until next time.