E2A 079: Building Strong Client Relationships Through Everyday Conversations with Deb Feder 

Episode Transcript

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Scott MacMillan:

You're listening to the Entrepreneur to Author podcast.

Announcer

Welcome to the Entrepreneur to Author podcast, the podcast that brings you practical strategies for building authority and growing your business. And now, here's your host, Scott MacMillan.

Scott

Deb Feder is a business growth coach and strategist who helps lawyers and leaders build outstanding careers. And she's the author of two books, After Hello, How to Build a Book of Business One Conversation at a Time, and Tell Me More, Building Trusted Client Relationships Through Everyday Interactions. Deb, I'm so happy to have you on the show.

Thank you so much for being here.

Deb Feder

Thanks for having me, Scott.

Scott

Look, I shared a little bit about you in the intro, but it would be really helpful for our listeners if you could share a little bit more about your expertise and the work that you do.

Deb

So I am, you know, some people might call me a recovering attorney. I practiced in both big law and in-house for 15 years and about 12 years ago started recognizing that there was opportunity for us to be working together differently, maybe making things a little bit easier. I've always loved client relationships and building them both within organizations, leading teams, but also then as an attorney advisor relationship.

So about 10 years ago, I left the practice of law and launched my own consulting business where I really focus on helping lawyers, business owners build incredible client relationships and think about how we really have these everyday moments and interactions and how we communicate the choices we make instead of trying to do everything and hoping something works out. How can we just make this a bit easier for everybody and a lot more fun?

Scott

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And your, your new book is titled, tell me more at the risk of being a little bit corny. Could you tell me more about it? Who's it written for and what's the goal for your reader?

Deb

So first of all, you should know that like I have a client who's obsessed with the title and she's like waiting for the Greece themed launch. And she's like, please tell me that like you have that song on replay. And I'm like, okay, I never thought about that, but now I'm going to have to like rethink future book titles.

So after hello was really about getting into the conversations and having these simple conversations and tell me more is how do we take conversations and our networking and our relationships and turn them into opportunities, but not in a way that requires big, splashy, you know, huge efforts. And instead of looking at it as what are our everyday interactions, right? Our phone calls, our emails are how we're getting through our task list.

How are we getting through it, but at the same time using those moments as opportunities to share our expertise, to offer help to clients, to progress conversations. And again, back to my original point, like how can we do this in a way that's easy and fun?

Scott

Yeah. So it's super practical and you know, a lot of our, some of our listeners are lawyers, right? They're professionals, they're experts in their field.

More generally, our listeners are experts broadly, right? Maybe not in law, but in some other area. And in, in tell me more, you talk about the importance of showing up as the expert.

And I'm wondering if you can share a bit more about that idea. What does it mean to, to show up as the expert for clients?

Deb

So too often in our world, we live in a, we live in a day and an age where there is so much information out there, right? It's at everybody's fingertips and trying to figure out what's like the really great expertise to rely on is often a little bit challenging. What I try to get people to do is shift from the mindset of, I just got to be out there and sharing my expertise and hoping it sticks to understanding that when you are confident enough, your expertise, that you are friends with your competitors, you're talking to them and engaged with competitors and clients on how they are seeing issues.

Your expertise shines through in the questions you ask rather than the information that you're necessarily throwing out there. It is important to share your expertise. It's important to continue to, you know, hone your skills and be, you know, up, up to date on things.

That being said, when you can share it in a way that resonates, right? Because you've been in those conversations, the wording matters, how you approach it matters. That's when like your expertise goes from like here to like here, right?

Because clients, regardless of the industry are like, you get me, you're paying attention to me. And in a world that's very noisy, finding the experts who are paying attention is a huge differentiator.

Scott

Mm. Totally is. Absolutely is.

And, you know, another major theme, I think, from the book is the importance of conversations. You talked about this already a little bit, but the importance of conversations for building and expanding client relationships. And you know, in some ways it sounds really simple, but I know that some people and, you know, especially introverts, shout out to all my introverts out there, find it a little bit daunting.

How, how should we approach these business development conversations so that they hit the right note? Right. They don't feel too salesy, but, but they're also purposeful.

Deb

Totally. So the idea here is that like, let's just get rid of the myth. You don't go from hello to hire me, right?

Like that's like a huge leap. And again, you don't just keep saying hello, like hire me over and over again and hope one day it sticks, right? Instead, what I like to offer up is there's a conversation progression.

We start with hello. We need some sort of introduction to somebody, right? And then there's small talk.

We get to know each other. We like find out whether you're grabbing coffee or a diet Coke. We know like you like breakfast meetings and not dinners.

Um, what, what you did for vacation, where you want to travel to someday, all this stuff comes out kind of in banter, right? It cannot be understated the importance of that space and conversations. Often you'll stay there in multiple conversations or multiple interactions.

At some point though, it takes one tiny step, not a huge leap to pivoting the conversation and asking a simple question to get curious and learn about somebody else's work and world, right? Far too often those conversations come off really broadly. What are you working on?

What are you worried about? So, um, and while those can be useful kind of starting points, I often suggest let's get a little bit more strategic, right? I know you work in this space.

I'm curious how you're looking at, and at that point it allows you to shine your expertise. You've set a framing for like, while I've got you, I'm really curious. And then your job is really to listen, right?

And at that point you start to notice what they talk about, what they don't talk about, the questions they have, what is worrying about them, what are they looking for for solutions? And it then provides you the opportunity for the next either conversation or step in the same conversation. So as we progress it, right, like it's not needing to go out there and talk to everybody.

I always say, let's start with three to five people.

Scott

That's a really good starting point. And the way that you're talking about it, perhaps this shouldn't be surprising. It sounds remarkably similar to just building good personal relationships, doesn't it?

Deb

Oh, I mean, you know, I can tell you that some of the early readers of Tell Me More were like, can we talk about how this has, you know, applications to kids going to college and making friends, people dating, meeting new coworkers, how you engage in our everyday neighborhoods and communities. It applies to everything that we do.

Scott

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Relationships are relationships. And I guess the distinguishing feature in the way that you're talking about it in Tell Me More is that is the final outcome, right? It's around how you're transitioning what are just good, solid relationships with human beings into something that has some commercial implications to it as well.

Deb

You know, I use the story in Tell Me More about a friend of mine calling me and trying to figure out how to help her son get back to college in the midst of a really crazy snow and ice storm in the Midwest. And we sat on the phone, we walked through all the scenarios. I'm from Iowa.

So there was a little bit of like, hey, you know, the roads better than most in where he was headed. But later she called me back and said, you know what I really appreciated is that you weren't solving it, you weren't lecturing, you weren't trying to tell me what to do. You literally just sat by my side and were there.

And I think that we underestimate the impact of whether it is for a client, a colleague, a neighbor, a friend, of just sitting by somebody's side and not trying to judge the situation and not jumping in with like, well, you have to do this, right? Sometimes what they need is somebody to bounce those ideas. They need somebody to trust that actually has the expertise to when they are giving advice that it's backed up, right?

There's some strength to it, but that isn't going to like just be like, okay, I hope that works and hang up the phone. They're going to stick with it.

Scott

Makes a ton of sense. Shifting gears a little bit, how did you find the writing process? And I guess what's a little bit unique for you compared to many of the folks that I speak to on this podcast is this isn't your first time writing a book.

So was writing Tell Me More any different than your experience writing After Hello?

Deb

Very much so. So I actually shared this in a workout group online that I belong to, that I'm a really big believer in the mind-body connection. And when I wrote After Hello, it was an endurance game, right?

Like I wrote a lot on LinkedIn, I can write an article, but writing the book, like I, so I started running, like doing really long, slow jogs all the way through After Hello. Because really the challenge there was just seeing it through, right? But from a first book to a second book, you now know like what worked, what didn't really resonate for you, or where you're like, there's some opportunity.

I could have done that better, right? So I found the second book in some ways more challenging, because you want to make sure like, is it worth it? Like, does somebody really want to read two books from me?

Like, you know, and I'll be honest, there's a third one like marinating, right? But it's the same daunting question of like, are we like pushing our luck that people want like more than this? So what I did in Tell Me More is I added in, I knew I still needed the endurance game.

But for me, there was this mind game of like, you have to be more powerful and stronger and more strategic. So I really leaned into the curious conversations that I talk about in the book, I also use with my writing strategy. So I go to my clients, my colleagues, mentors, and say, here's what I'm talking about.

And I have walls of like big sticky notes of their notes. I mean, I can remember one phone call where a husband and wife were in a car shouting over each other. And I am like racing between boards with sticky notes and markers, moving things around in an outline.

So I don't know, I try to keep it fun and engaging. But it really is a little bit, I found it a little bit more daunting.

Scott

For those who are longtime listeners to the podcast, they'll know that I love the analogy of running when it comes to writing. And what I like, it sounds to me like the first book, Endurance, like you say, the second book is about performance in some ways. And I liken that to when you're running your first marathon or half marathon, you're just trying to get through it, right?

You're trying to just make sure that your body kind of survives the endurance. And then subsequent ones, you're like, OK, well, can I do a personal best on this one? Can I improve my running form, et cetera?

Deb

OK, we just need to clarify really quickly for everybody here, I actually follow trainings for people for half marathons and marathons. You will never see Dev Vetter ever on the starting line for a half marathon or marathon. I feel and I know people say never say never.

I feel really confident in this in this one. That being said, the training is really great. And like to your point, like I do take the running tests every quarter, right, to see and you get competitive.

You're like, hmm, can I can I feel a little better? Can I recover faster? And that's actually where I'm actually focused right now is, OK, after Hello launched and there was like a pause and I already had pulled things out of the book for Tell Me More.

That became the base of it because it just was too much in the first book, right? It needed its own space. And now I'm like, what's the not recovery?

Like I'm like having a needing a recovery, but like there's this transition period of like, how do you stay in the writing process rather than leave it and come back?

Scott

Yeah, yeah. And that's that's another really great analogy to running because you can very easily after the race just, you know, relax and get out of shape. And then it's a it's an uphill climb again to get back into it.

You know, one of the interesting things about Tell Me More is that it's it's a sequel to After Hello. When you were thinking about writing Tell Me More, how did you think about it in terms of writing both for people who may have read After Hello, but also being useful to those who are perhaps just starting out directly in with Tell Me More? Or do you expect people to have read the first one?

Deb

I do not. I think that they can stand alone or go together. I think there's a few places where I use language that I would have used in After Hello.

Like I talk about ideals as my ideal client like reference. I do a little like, you know, a little smidge of a hat tip back to After Hello when necessary. I think that like you want them to they can't contradict.

And if we're going to be really honest, like one of my big nightmares, like over and over again in the writing process is, did I already talk about this in After Hello? Like, did I already do this? Like, and I would constantly go back and be like scouring the pages, being like, certainly I know what I pulled out and what stayed in.

And like, I don't want to be repetitive or boring. Right. So I I think that I want them to be useful on their own.

They can work together. They don't. There is some overlap because naturally sometimes we have to talk about the same thing in multiple different ways till it really resonates or we find the way that works for you.

Scott

Yeah, right. Right. What are your goals for in terms of business goals for tell me more and how are you using it in your business?

Deb

So I love I love facilitating retreats and workshops, and it's a really great way to launch a conversation with a new client of not only are we going to go have this experience, but then I'm going to be able to provide you with, you know, the book and the resources. There's a toolbox that goes with it. There's ongoing opportunities to put it into action.

So in some ways for my business, it's a really great way to make sure that we're continuing the conversation kind of unintended.

Scott

And look, it's early days now, but how has it been received?

Deb

Really crazy, incredibly. I won't lie. I was like like, you know, again, you kind of don't know how the marathon is going to end until the marathon ends.

And we're not definitely not at the end here. But I had one of my early readers came to me and said, this is like really important, like should be required reading for people starting off in careers or really at the point where they want to be owning their own careers and how they build relationships and how they are engaged and interested in others, which I loved. And then I had another person recently send me a note and they were like, this is, you know, they said, I'm surprised I loved your first book, but this is better.

And so I'll take that. Like I so so far, it's been really great.

Scott

Oh, that's so good. I'm so happy to hear that. Deb, how can people get in touch with you to learn more about what you do and potentially work with you?

Deb

Well, DebFeder.com is my website, and there's all sorts of information there on LinkedIn. I'm often found under the #BizDeb, but come hit connect. Send me a message and we'll connect.

We'll have a conversation.

Scott

Fantastic. Well, we'll put those links in the show notes so that people can access them really easily. Deb, thank you again for chatting with us today.

And thank you for your guidance about building strong client relationships and also for your insights about your own authorship journey. It's an experience that I know many of our listeners will find incredibly helpful.

Deb

Thanks, Scott, for having me.

Scott

As we wrap up this episode of Entrepreneur to Author, remember this. Now is the time. Time to write, time to publish and time to grow.

I'm Scott MacMillan. Until next time.