E2A 093: Bringing Books to Life with StoryStyle™ Audio Learning, Featuring Russell Cullingworth 

Episode Transcript

Please note: The transcript is produced by a third-party company from an audio recording and may include transcription errors.

Scott MacMillan

You're listening to the Entrepreneur to Author podcast. 

Announcer

Welcome to the Entrepreneur to Author podcast, the podcast that brings you practical strategies for building authority and growing your business. And now, here's your host, Scott MacMillan.

Scott:

My guest today is Russell Cullingworth. Russ is the CEO and founder of  ProDio Audio Learning, Inc., the world's first formal mobile audio learning company. Since launching  ProDio in 2017, he has pioneered StoryStyle™ audio learning, transforming expert-led professional development into immersive, story-driven audio courses that engage the imagination, enhancing learning engagement and effectiveness.

Russ, thanks so much for being here.

Russell Cullingworth:

Hi, Scott. Good to be here.

Scott:

Listen, for those who might not know yet, could you share a little bit about your background and what led you to founding ProDio?

Russ:

So my background is actually in finance and accounting, where I was a misfit for 25 years. And there's a lot of story around that. But in 2010, I made the decision to leave the accounting profession and teach emotional intelligence.

So I was a facilitator in emotional intelligence since 2010. And around 2016, I decided to take a marketing course from UBC to up my game in marketing. But for those who know me, I don't sit still very well.

And I think a lot of learning, adult learning, professional learning, still adheres to this model of sitting still and listening and watching the teacher, and sitting in one place watching the teacher. So it didn't take long before I became really frustrated with the course. It was summer here in Vancouver, but I was stuck indoors because I couldn't see my screen if I sat outside in the sunshine.

So I sat indoors watching my screen. And I was just getting frustrated. The content wasn't good.

It was pretty dry and boring. And at one point, I came in and said to my wife, most of the time, I could just listen to this guy. Like, why do I need to sit and stare at him talking at me?

And I'm like, what if people could just listen in their car or while they're going for a walk or running? And so that's where it kind of struck me. At the time, I was also considering creating an online course for emotional intelligence.

And then I was like, well, why don't I just do it in audio and turned out to be a great course. I actually interviewed six experts around the world, including Marshall Goldsmith and Mark Goulston, who are two of my favorite authors. And yeah, so we just created mobile audio learning for professionals.

But one thing that's important to know is that before we even started, I knew that if it's going to be audio, it has to be really good. You know, I didn't want to create audio lectures. And my goal at the time was really to push the boundaries of what we could do with sound in learning.

And that's how StoryStyle™ was created.

Scott:

Wonderful, wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about Book to Reality, which is a bit of an extension to what you started with. Could you share a little bit about what it is and what problem does it solve for authors and experts?

Russ:

Yeah, so I think, you know, nonfiction authors in particular, you know, pour their expertise and their passion and a lot of research into writing their books. And most of them want people to read them and be transformed by what they learn. And that's really who we are focusing on is authors who care deeply about their message.

They're not writing for sales. They're writing because they want readers to understand and absorb their advice and be transformed in some way by that knowledge. And so I think the biggest problem that nonfiction authors face is that readers don't finish their books.

They start them, but they don't finish. I'm guilty of that with numerous books, even some of my favorites that I really liked. I didn't finish them.

You know, readers get bored. They get they're not engaged. They get a bit bored and don't finish reading.

The other one, I think, is a big one, which is lack of emotional connection with the material. So they don't fully understand it or they don't connect with the content or how to apply it even in their workplace or in their personal life. And then finally, it's just, you know, remembering the lessons of the book and readers tend to forget really quickly.

So so Book to Reality is a new product that hasn't, as far as I know, hasn't been created before, hasn't been done before. And the end product is an audio companion with acted scenarios, stories and analogies that will engage imagination. I want to talk a little bit more about imagination at some point, but they demonstrate the real world application of the book's principles in the workplace.

So you know what those conversations really look like when the learning is being applied.

Scott:

Oh, good. So, you know, in contrast to an audio book, which is generally a straight read of the text of the book, what you're doing with Book to Reality is really interesting because you're reimagining the lessons and and presenting it in a sort of audio native format that, you know, I agree. I've not seen that elsewhere in the market.

So that's really interesting. What does the process look like for an author who wants to take their book and bring it to life through Book to Reality?

Russ:

OK, so I mean, the process would be pretty straightforward. Once we agreed to move forward with an author, we would select their top principles from their book that they want to communicate and produce into audio scenarios. That's also how we base our pricing, because we create a scenario for each principle, essentially.

And then the author gets to decide. The next step is the author gets to decide, do they want to be a narrator or do they want us to provide a narrator? The narration is an important part of the storytelling because it helps to introduce the scenario.

Sometimes there's transitions within the scenario that we use a narrator for and then afterwards to explain the concept and what was happening and bring it home, you know, with the narrator. So they decide whether we can work with the author or we can work with a professional voice actor as a narrator. We don't use AI, by the way.

We've tried using AI voices and somehow they always drop the ball. They might carry it for a minute or two, but then it comes a line that you just can't get it right and just can't get the connection. And once you break that spell, it's gone.

You know, once people realize this is AI voice, you've lost them. So yeah, once we've signed the agreement, then ProDio scripts the scenarios and involves the author and the author approves all the scripts before we move on to the next stage, which is recording the voice actors and sound production, sound design, adding in music, sound effects to bring it to life. And then once the content is all recorded, the author gets to approve it again.

And then the end product is a polished, high quality audio companion that is digital. They can share it or sell it anywhere they like.

Scott:

Do you typically do the recording in studio or can you do that virtually?

Russ:

Well, with voice actors these days, they're mostly virtual. My wife, Christine, is our head of production and she's a voice actor, a professional voice actor. She has a studio in one of our rooms and most of them work remotely now.

It's the way the world is.

Scott:

Yeah, absolutely.

Russ:

So, yeah, so we do it remotely with... We have quite an excellent group of professional voice actors that we work with and we're always looking for more and different accents and, you know, representing different characters.

Scott:

Yeah, excellent. Who's the ideal author, would you say, or whether it's author or thought leader, expert for this type of experience?

Russ:

As I mentioned earlier, you know, we're really focused on authors who care deeply about their message and that readers can understand and absorb the learning. Yeah, they're not just writing to make sales. They want that deeper understanding of, OK, now I've read this or listened to it.

How do I go and do this in the real world? And how do I, you know, how does it sound when I had that conversation with my teenage, you know, boss or, you know, or in the workplace, those things, you know? Yeah, so that's who we're targeting is just to bring that to life.

Scott:

Yeah, very good. Very good. Now, you're in the thick of writing your own book, aren't you?

Russ:

That's right, yeah.

Scott:

What motivated you to start writing and how does it align to the work that you're doing at  ProDio?

Russ:

So, the book is called Learn to Imagine. It's the first book I've written. It's almost finished.

It's gone through its second developmental edit and now I've got to do another rewrite and some more, you know, it's to inform the world about audio storytelling and the importance of imagination, specifically in creating rich and meaningful learning experiences. You know, there's a lot of research and it's really how humans have learned since the beginning of humanity of human intelligence is through storytelling and imagination. And so, that's the book.

Of course, if you know my passion for storytelling, the book is a story, very similar in ways to Patrick Lencioni's Five Dysfunctions of a Teen. And the book is set in an ecosystem called Cardio Tech, which is a fictional company I created for the purposes of scenarios and storytelling. It's actually great because it creates a common backstory, characters, relationships, history, and ecosystem where I have that consistency in everything we do.

So, we've created a course for CPAs, it's called CPA Skills, AI Can't Beat, which is set at Cardio Tech and the book is at Cardio Tech. So, there's all consistent story between them. Yeah.

And so, the book is for HR professionals and it follows the Chief Human Resource Officer, Nikki Pepys, as she, just a few months into her job, she discovers that employees are very disenchanted with their learning program, especially their mandatory learning. They hate it. They find it boring.

It's not accessible. They've got tons of complaints and they're actually not finishing their mandatory learning either. So, they have a lot of concerns about that and she starts a project to find a much more engaging learning program that employees will love and she comes across, she and her team come across a story style.

But there's some drama and intrigue along the way as well. So, yeah. The whole book is a story.

One thing I just wanted to add to that is, one thing I realized is that, and I think this might follow on your next question, Scott, is like, I realized that if I enjoy writing, people are probably going to enjoy reading. And the magic that I've found and the beta readers that I've had, I've had about six people beta read the book, they can talk to me about the characters and the situations flawlessly without having to even try to remember what happened. And so, that level of engagement with storytelling is so exceptionally powerful that they know that Betty and they talk to me about Betty.

Betty did this and Mark did this. And so, they know the characters in the book. They know what happened.

They know the conversations without, and you miss that in strictly instructional writing, I think. So, that's one thing I've found is I've really enjoyed imagining the conversations and writing the stories. And I think that's very powerful for readers.

Scott:

Yeah, that's really interesting. And it's funny, having been involved as a participant in a lot of corporate learning in the past, what you described sounds a lot more like nonfiction than it does fiction. And of course, that's what makes it so compelling, right, is that it resonates with your reader and they'll be able to envision themselves and imagine themselves in the scenarios that you're presenting to them.

Russ:

Yeah, an interesting aspect there is that I've also got five expert guests that I've incorporated into the story. And these are real world experts that are having conversations with fictional characters. So, that's quite an interesting interplay there.

And I've had to explain that carefully to my readers that these aren't fictional experts. They're actually real world experts.

Scott:

Yeah, fascinating. That's a really interesting merging of fiction and nonfiction. Russ, what are your goals for your book?

How do you envision using it in your business?

Russ:

So, for me, the real challenge we've had with ProDio is informing the world and educating the adult learning world, but just the corporate world in general, about the benefits of imagination in education and professional learning. So, that's my real goal, is to inform and educate. You know, I wrote an article once called The Truly Out of the Box Idea, which as we started establishing partnerships with...

We have partnerships with about 11, I think, professional associations now around the world. And once we started establishing those partnerships, I realized they don't have a box for what we do. And so, they've put us under online learning or podcasts.

Some put us under audio webs. They just don't have a box for formal audio learning. So, for me, my vision is that one day there'll be a box for this and for StoryStyle™ Audio Learning and people understand and know what it is.

So, I'd like to... You know, my book is to introduce us to professional associations, learning organizations around the world who will allow me to come and speak at their conferences and to establish my position in the market on this topic.

Scott:

Excellent. Excellent.

Russ:

There's a lot of research. You know, I've got tons of articles. I just wrote an article yesterday about Dr. Kieran Egan, who started the Imagination Education Research Group at Simon Fraser University. So, there's a lot of research. A lot of it's focused on childhood education, but he also writes that it's equally important for all ages. And there's actually evidence that it improves creativity and critical thinking by exercising your imagination.

And now, I'm working on research about whether it can help to prevent cognitive decline by the impact. So, it's like exercising your body is like this is exercise for your brain.

Scott:

Yeah, very good. In terms of the writing process, what's been going well and what have you found perhaps more challenging than you expected?

Russ:

Yeah, I think what's gone really well for me is this real world, realistic characters that I've created. You know, in the story, Monica Duncan, the CEO, the backstory is that in the CPA skills, they actually uncover a fraud that's involving a husband who was found to be having an affair with the CFO and they were embezzling money from the company. So, this whole imaginary but realistic character development and story development.

It's just like in the movies, you know, the most compelling characters in movies have a very complex backstory and that comes out in their conversations and expressions. And the other interesting experience I've had is at first, I started writing it as third person characters describing events. But I realized if I changed it to first person, I could get a lot deeper into their inner thoughts and emotions because those aren't observable from a third party perspective, but they are easily expressed by the person themselves.

So, I was about a third of the way through the book and I had to go and change everything from third person to first person, which resulted in a bit of a mess because I did search and replace and then I ended up with tons of grammatical errors. So, lesson learned there. One thing that really worked for me was setting aside two hours, my most productive two hours of the day, which is 9am to 11am for me, and I just set that aside to write.

So, every two hours, I would just bang away at my keyboard and get that first draft out, write to it, which then you can start polishing up. Yeah, so that worked really well.

Scott:

Yeah, that's excellent. Yeah, because a lot of people ask what's the best way to approach getting their manuscript written and what you described, I think, is for most people, the best approach is just blocking it in your calendar and then treating it as you would any other appointment that you can't miss, right? You sit down and you write for two hours and then you move on with your day.

Russ:

Yeah, and create a habit in that way as well. That's really valuable. I'm actually missing doing it, Scott, is I've got another book in mind that I've started a number and I've never finished them, but there's one in particular, which is an emotional intelligence-based book and I'm looking forward to when I can get back into that habit again, but I'm doing some other business stuff right now.

Yeah, a lot's going on.

Scott:

Yeah, it is a little bit addictive. From your unique perspective, Russ, combining content, storytelling, and immersive audio, what advice would you give to authors thinking about the future life of their book beyond the printed page?

Russ:

If you want your book to have longevity, it needs to be enjoyable and memorable, and I think storytelling is the key writing. That story tells stories, you know. Obviously, I'm, yeah, so, you know, make them as real as possible.

The best fictional authors, I love fiction books and audio books, again, because they invoke imagination. Like, you know, an important part of that, by the way, is if you want your book to be memorable, is imagination allows your reader to create their own characters. So, descriptive storytelling in a fictional, in a non-fiction book, so writing it like it's a fictional book, even though it's non-fiction, allows your reader or audio book listener or book-to-reality listener to imagine those people.

And I've gone, you know, in my book, we have Nikki and Betty walking along the waterfront in Vancouver, and it's geographically accurate, and so to make those fictional stories as accurate and detailed as possible so that people can connect with them. And people love drama, and, you know, my developmental editor, first edit, she said, you know, we need more, you know, put in some more drama. The first bit of drama really caught me, and so we've added some more drama.

And then she's like, oh, that's a great thing. The second edit was like, bring in more. Like, I need some more of that.

You need to expand on it because it's a real critical issue. So that really, you know, even my editor, that's what grabbed her, was the drama. And it's all relevant to the lessons of the book.

So, you know, and I think the more you can connect that with the real world, you know, connect your principles of your book with your real world drama, because we all have drama. We all have problems in the real world. The more you can connect those, the more longevity and memorable your book will be, right?

And then, of course, if you create a Book to Reality companion, it'll be a fun and exciting asset that you can share, you know, digitally with anyone, and I guarantee that they will love it, because I don't know if you know, just one thing I just wanted to add, that Audible now has audio dramas, which are books in acted audio with Aaron Paul and, you know, well-paid, well-known actors acting out voice acting roles in audio drama books. But they're all fictional.

We can do that in nonfiction.

Scott:

Yeah, it's a much more engaging experience than a straight read.

Russ:

Yeah, absolutely. And it's only, I mean, it's ideally an hour long, so people can listen to it on their commute to work. You know, they could take in the whole book.

It's kind of like Blinkist for audio books.

Scott:

That's a good way of, yeah, it's a good way of positioning it.

Russ:

Absolutely.

Scott:

Yeah. Wonderful. Russ, where can listeners go to learn more about ProDio and Book to Reality or connect with you directly?

Russ:

Yeah, so our website is prodio-learning.com. And there's a tab right at the top called Book to Reality on the menu. And we have a demo there based on a book called Best Boss Ever by Glenn Dorey.

And then there's a little bit of a demo about my book as well. I'll encourage your listeners to take a look at the StoryStyle™ learning tab, which explains a bit more. There's some audio samples for each of the nine forms of media that we use in StoryStyle™.

And then if they need to email me, my email is russell at ProDiolearning.com or connect with me on LinkedIn, Russell Cullingworth on LinkedIn.

Scott:

Excellent. Well, we'll be sure to put all of those links in the show notes. Russ, thank you so much for joining me today.

I know our listeners will be really excited to see how they can bring their own ideas from the page to audio reality. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to be here today.

Russ:

Thanks, Scott. It was a pleasure being on your podcast.

Scott:

If you're an author or expert looking to bring your ideas to life in a powerful new format, definitely check out ProDio and specifically Book to Reality. Links are in the show notes. And if you're enjoying the Entrepreneur to Author Podcast, be sure to follow, review, and share it with a fellow expert thought leader.

Now is the time, time to write, time to publish, and time to grow. I'm Scott MacMillan. Until next time.