E2A 094 Bridging the Gap: Transforming Technical Concepts into Practical Insights with Jonas Van Riel 

Episode Transcript

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Scott MacMillan

You're listening to the Entrepreneur to Author podcast. 

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Welcome to the Entrepreneur to Author podcast, the podcast that brings you practical strategies for building authority and growing your business. And now, here's your host, Scott MacMillan.

Scott:

My guest today is Jonas Van Riel. Jonas is a consultant, lecturer, and researcher with over 15years of experience in guiding digital and enterprise transformation programs across various industries in Europe. He specializes in capability-based management, or CBM, and is the author of Leading with Capabilities, Capabilities-Based Management as a Driver for Strategy Implementation.

Jonas, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. 

Jonas Van Riel:

Thanks, Scott. It's nice being here.

Scott:

Wonderful. Well, listen, I shared a little bit about you in the intro, but could you tell our listeners a little bit more about your professional background and how your work evolved towards capability-based management?

Jonas:

Sure. I think my story has two sides to it. First of all, as you mentioned in the introduction, I've been active as a practitioner, helping organizations as a consultant for about 15 years now.

So the day I graduated from university, I started first working in SAP, moved gradually into more business architecture and custom development and software, which really allowed me to, I would say, get to know both sides of the table. So both business and IT, learn a lot of different domains in business and IT, which was a really good learning school. But I kind of always wanted to be more structuring, I would say.

So I moved into more of the architect's role, and first on IT side. So I really did integration architecture and things we call solution domain architecture in the IT landscape, and also picking up program management for bigger IT programs, actually. So bigger, longer journeys, I would say.

I got a bit frustrated in that, because being in IT means basically you're on the downstream side. So that means you always get to deal with decisions that are made for you, and those decisions kind of were not always that clear or that well-made. So I really wanted to evolve at that moment and said, well, I'm going to reorient myself a bit and move towards the business side of things.

So I started working more on the business architecture side, really shaping, I would say, the configuration of the business, trying to decide what the value propositions were of the companies, trying to help them with how they were building their, I'd say, product and service portfolio, those kind of things. Really focusing a lot on, at that time, also on business process management. And gradually I evolved towards what we call the enterprise architecture layer.

So trying to take the perspective on the strategic side, really trying to figure out what is the configuration of the organization that we need to build in two to three years, given the strategic ambitions of the organization. So doing that, I learned a lot about organizations and the challenges they had on all different kind of levels. And it was at that time I was really struggling with, OK, how do we help organizations in making those decisions on a strategic level and make them clear to the rest of the organization?

Because ambitions mostly are on the product and service level and so on, but they are rarely clearly communicated and decided for on the, I would say, operation configuration side. So I enrolled in a master in enterprise architecture and started doing a thesis there. And it was at that time in that master that I encountered the concept of the capability, which for me was really, as we say in Dutch or in German, an aha erlebnis.

So really the moment where you have the aha. Because it really offered something that I thought, OK, this is actually something I can use in practice. I started doing the thesis in that.

And what we tried to do with the thesis was, OK, how can we use that capability structure and concept really to help organizations? And mostly as a first phase, we were looking into, OK, within an industry, capabilities are kind of business domains. So within an industry, a lot of these domains are going to be the same for companies.

So we wanted to see, can we find these reference generic models for an industry and derive or come up with a sort of methods or approach to create these? And it was at that time, actually, that thesis that really got me into academics because my supervisor at the time asked if I wanted to continue the thesis into a PhD, and that's basically what I did. And then when I finished my thesis, they asked me if I wanted to head the same master in architecture enterprise architecture program that I had been doing.

So I kind of rolled into the academics next to my practitioner side. And it was in that moment as well that I discovered when we were teaching to these students, which were adult people, I would say, this master after master program. So people who are daily also in the field that I encountered, well, they were all very excited about the concept.

They had the same stars in their eyes when I told them that, the same aha moment. But we always felt that, well, we're missing a bit of foundational work. In practice, we got the results, but it was really depending on who was doing the job.

So we really thought, OK, both from practice, both from, you know, science, there was not all that much that was well structured. And that's how I really got into the concept of, OK, how can we, you know, shape this domain of capability-based management? How can we both in practice, but also in, you know, scientific research, look for proper methods and approaches and then so on to that actual, to mature that field.

And that's, that has been my journey up to now.

Scott:

Wonderful. Well, you know, it's, I find it really interesting because capabilities, it's a really tangible way to think about strategy, you know, strategy, I think for a lot of people can be a very amorphous topic, you know, everybody talks about strategy, but what does it actually mean in practice? And I think capabilities is a very effective lens, a very practical lens for looking at strategy and how you differentiate yourself in the market.

I digress a little bit, but, you know, you've, you've recently written Leading with Capabilities. For those that aren't familiar, could you explain why, why you felt it was important to articulate capabilities-based management in a book and who did you write it for and what is your, what is your goal for your reader?

Jonas:

Those are, you know, interesting questions. I think for me, one of the things or one of the reasons why I really wanted to write a book was because I wanted to get my ideas out there. So I think noticing that there was a lot of, you know, we were getting results with applying it, but I still felt that not too many people were doing it in the right way.

I also encountered in practice, you know, capability structures or, you know, applied cases of the capability concept that were not that well done. So I really thought, okay, let's find a way to reach people with what we have been, you know, first of all, researching, because the work at the university is really focused on making those methods and making sure that people can use it. And then I thought at that moment, I really had to, you know, write something that is for practitioners because scientific literature is not for everyone.

So I really wanted to write a book about, you know, everything I've been doing, both as a practitioner and as a researcher and, you know, streamlining also my ideas into a book because that was also part of the journey, but then, you know, create something that people can actually use in practice. And I think that, you know, the true value of capability-based management lies mostly in the fact that, as you said before, capabilities are a good way to look at an organization and a good way to facilitate these strategic decisions. It's a sort of, I would say, viewpoint that you provide for the organization that is somewhere in between strategic ambition strategy and somewhere between, you know, operational management.

And it allows us to, I would say, make abstraction from the operational complexity because, you know, there's so much information on operational level. And I think I've seen it in the past. You know, I mentioned the beginning focusing too much on business process management, for example, when I was doing, you know, the work earlier.

I noticed that if we got too much information involved, people were not able to make strategic decisions anymore. It was too much. So they got in this sort of paralysis.

You know, there's too many options. We were mostly discussing where does the process start and where does it end. And the interesting thing with the capability is that it allows us to get that layer in between where we actually say, OK, we make, you know, sometimes we make abstraction of the operational side, but that helps us to focus on the strategic side.

And the other way around, it helps us also if we have made these decisions, then we can project them on that, you know, in between layer, I would say. And people in the operational area are empowered because they get clear guidelines. I would say clear handles on what is expected for a domain.

And in that, you know, I would say in that perspective, it brings a lot of value. And I really want to, I believe a lot, you know, in that concept and how it works. And I really wanted to make something that is accessible for a lot of different profiles.

So not just seasoned enterprise architects, but really all managers, all analysts, all architects, I want really them to be able to read the book and think, OK, this is something that inspires me and I can start applying. So that was also very important to me that I, you know, write a book that would actually be useful to people, not just as inspiration, which is the first part of the book, but also as, you know, something that is really hands on that they can start applying in practice.

Scott:

Let's talk a little bit about that writing process. Were there any parts of the book that you found particularly challenging or perhaps surprisingly enjoyable to write?

Jonas:

Yeah. So I really enjoy writing this book for practitioners because I've been writing a lot for, you know, scientific audience, I would say, or academics in the past few years. And I really enjoy trying to make all the concepts as understandable and as practically applicable as possible.

So that was really, for me, a lot of fun because it allowed me to, I would say, to make my language a bit more fluent because in academic language, we tend to be very, very, very specific about every word that we use. But in practice, I mean, it's mostly has to be inspiring and clear. But I still wanted to make sure that, you know, the scientific foundation was respected.

So I thought, OK, let's make this interesting. Let's make it appealing, easy to read. But at the same time, let's make sure that it, you know, sticks to the truth of what we have already discovered in the academic research, I would say.

What I really found hard to do, though, was the second part of the book focuses really on what I call use cases. So different analysis techniques and approaches that you can use to, I would say, look into things in your organization and make decisions, right? Collect the data, make the decisions.

By doing so and writing it for practitioners, first of all, I had to make it very clear and also need to make sure that everything was understandable for people who are going to read it without me explaining it additionally. So that was quite a challenge because everything needed to fit properly. And then, but it was, again, fun.

I really enjoyed writing the book. It was something I've been wanting to do for a long time now. So I'm glad I actually got to doing it.

Scott:

What about the publishing process? So, you know, the writing, the editorial piece is one thing. What do you find most interesting or challenging or even unexpected about moving from manuscript to finished book?

Jonas:

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, what really struck me was the value of an editor because I wrote a big part of the book, you know, by myself in the beginning because I thought, OK, I got these ideas and I, you know, I want to get it out there. The value of the editor for me was mostly in fine tuning and shaping parts of my story.

And by that I mean, you know, the big structure, I think I kind of got it right. But then just the way some things were portrayed, the way some things were explained, that process with an editor was really enlightening for me. And I kind of hoped it would be, but it delivered, you know, all the way on that.

And that's something I really enjoyed working with someone who is fine tuning your ideas. That is just because it's, you know, you can see the ideas come to fruition. And it's, yeah, that was a lot of fun and something I really enjoyed.

What was kind of also unexpected for me was the effort to get it from, you know, text to book. There's a lot involved also because I have a lot of visuals and there's a lot of effort, you know, in shaping and fine tuning all of that. But I think you got to be willing to put in the work.

I think that's the thing if you want it to be of high quality. But that's fine. I mean, but it was the whole process of writing a book from beginning to end was a lot of effort, but I enjoyed all of it.

It's about, you know, perseverance, but also if you like writing, if you are passionate about the story, then I think it's in the end you forget about the effort and then you're just happy with the result, I guess. That's good.

Scott:

Yeah, yeah. It can be very rewarding, all of the effort that goes in. But, you know, as authors, we often have business goals as well, right?

We want to, yes, it's nice to be able to say that you've got a book to market, but you often want tangible results from a business perspective. What are your business goals for the book and how are you planning to use it to support what you do?

Jonas:

I think for me, the main purpose for writing a book was really to reach as many people as possible. I think I always just wanted to get those ideas out for the moment I had. Like I said, my aha moment, that was a moment I realized, OK, this is something that a lot of people who are like me looking for structure and trying to improve organization.

So I think it's something they will like. And I think there's a lot of material out there that is not, pardon my say, but good enough, not clear enough. So I really wanted to spread that story.

That was one of the and still is my main driver. I'm really passionate about this and I really believe it can be very valuable to a lot of people in organizations because it offers a pragmatic approach, something that is clear and that you can use. So, yeah, I think that was the first one.

Next to that, I also hope it will open some doors to spread the knowledge in a more profound way. So that means for me, giving training, those kind of things, using the Bogat University as a, I mean, as a foundation for students and so on. So that's actually something I'm really looking forward to.

But also, you know, training practitioners, helping people in organizations, applying this, doing it. I'm doing that on a daily basis already as we speak. I'm coaching people on how to build these capability structures and maps and how to apply them and how to apply the principles of CBM.

So, yeah, there's that. We're looking forward to building that, you know, practice and brand more.

Scott:

Yeah, yeah. I want to get back into the content of the book a little bit. You introduced the concept of cap maps or capability maps, and it's a central tool for organizations.

Could you explain a little bit about what a cap map is and how it supports better decision making? Yeah.

Jonas:

So basically, if we are talking about capabilities, a capability reflects sort of a business domain. So that means that the idea is to divide your, I would say, organization up into different domains. It's sort of a decomposition where you start on a high level and you start, you know, breaking down the different domains to smaller domains.

So a capability in itself, also the name says it, it's like it's capacity and ability. Right. So it's the ability to do things in a certain way and then have the capacity.

So capacity means you have the number of resources and the right resources that you need for that. And ability is more, you know, related to being able to configure your resources in such a way that they produce the outcome that you want. So that's that's the idea.

A capability structure, then, is just the decomposition of the structure reflecting your organization. But a cap map is basically a visual version of that. It is a conceptual or enterprise model, depending on what you want to call it.

It is a visual representation of that structure and it really shows visually all these different domains next or beneath each other, depending on the levels they are on. And the value of that is mostly that, first of all, we are, as human beings, we are beings that love visual models. We are way more, I would say, inclined to understand something when it is presented to us in a visual way rather than textual.

It helps us to quickly understand something and that model or that map provides a first foundation. I would say a first canvas that we can use to show this is our organization. So we all get aligned on that.

So not every meeting we need to start. OK, but do you understand that domain? No, we can actually people know it, people understand it.

And next to that, it's also very valuable because we can visually represent data and information on the map. So that means if you want to make certain decisions. I understand which domains are doing well, which are not, for example, and we can do that with color coding and so on.

So the map becomes really, I would say, this color canvas that tells a story. And the other way around as well, it is also if we are making decisions for specific domains, examples are, do we want to be differentiated in the market or do we want to be innovative compared to the market for a specific domain or do we just want to be standard compared to the rest of the market? Those are decisions that we can easily show on such a capability map or a cap map.

And that is actually something that is really valuable as well in communicating decisions on a strategic level towards the rest of the organization. Most research and most, I would say, models or approaches on strategy execution will tell you that it's very important to clearly communicate your strategic decisions to the rest of the organization, while a visual model is a very strong tool for that. So that's what the cap map is.

It's a visual representation of that structure that allows us to become sort of, I would say, yeah, like I said before, a canvas with colors, with symbols, things we can use, sort of Rosetta Stone between the strategic level and the operational level.

Scott:

Yeah. Excellent. Excellent.

One theme that you highlight in the book is the current lack of universally accepted definition of what a capability is in the field. How do you think that gap is affecting businesses today and what role do you hope that your book will have in addressing that?

Jonas:

I think the concept and the reason why not everyone likes the concept of capabilities yet is because there's a bit of ambiguity around it and that hampers the adoption, I guess. For me, I've heard from people, executives that say, yes, we have a capability map or a cap map, but it's not really clear to me what it is. If I ask one architect, they give me a different definition compared to another architect.

So I think that is a bit of a problem because, first of all, it slows down or it hinders the idea of defining what the capabilities in your organization are. If you're going to create that viewpoint or that model of your organization, you need to have a clear definition and properties of, okay, this is a capability and if you define it that way and you can do some checks and balances, then you know that you have a proper structure, which allows you to do the right analysis. If you don't have a proper structure, then it's hard to do a good analysis.

So it's the same with mapping out a process. If it's not clear what a process means and you cannot define a start and an end point, then you cannot measure anything on the process because what is your start and your end point? So it's a bit of a similar idea there.

And I think it's mostly hampering the adoption of capabilities and then obviously capability-based management. And I think if we can get a more strict definition, what I already have with the book, and even more on the, I would say, the model level, making sure that we have very clear rules on what it is and what it is not and the properties related to that and so on, then I think we can even have better research on that, first of all, because that's also important, and that we can also have better adoption organizations. Modeling domains, like with software, you can do checks, you can do controls, and then you know you have a good model. That's the quality assurance that I also would love to have for the capability concept.

We are actually doing research on that. We recently, at the start of the year, we published a paper on that that focuses on really, I would say, progressing the domain of capability-based management from an academic point of view, and we're trying to really get people and researchers around the world to align on those ideas and make sure that if we're moving forward, they can say, hey, we're adhering to that kind of definition, and our research fits into that bigger frame. It was recently published with the Association for Information Systems, which has a big reach on everything that is information systems and research, so we're happy with that, and we're hoping to really create that kind of community ecosystem where both practitioners and researchers will find each other and start working, improving on the whole concept. So the book is a first step in that.

Excellent. Good.

Scott:

You closed the book by talking about the future potential for CBM. Where do you see the biggest opportunities for capability-based management to evolve or make a wider impact?

Jonas:

I think now that we have sort of defined it as a practice, I think, like I said before, and the previous topic is really close, really related to that, making sure that we move towards a very good definition, even working more, and the book already has a lot of good stuff, but I think we can even evolve beyond that and get the checks and balances in place. I think also that if people start using it, and so that's why the book is also very important, if people start using it and applying it, we can learn from experiences, we can improve the methods and techniques, so that's something I think will be very important moving forward. But I also see a lot of potential for applying the capability structure in a broader way, so for me, capability-based management really means basing your management decisions on the capability structure.

For example, one of the things I see that would be very valuable is when it comes to sustainability, there are a lot of challenges, they are very complicated. How do you translate those ambitions and challenges into the organization? And I think breaking it down, it's the old joke of how to eat an elephant, by defining that, I think that's similar, or at least you can use capability-based management for that as well, so you can look into the domains and see what you can do there for sustainability, what the impact is, and set goals for the different domains rather than saying, okay, this is a goal for our entire organization, because that's really difficult. And the other thing there is that, for example, there are also, I would say, applications on the financial side, so let's say management accounting, that is one, we often divide our organization up into cost centers, or activity-based costing is applied, those kind of things.

And the thing is, all of these areas, they always, in some way, have a structure of the organization, or a structure that reflects the organization. And in my opinion, I think if we can use the capability structure as a foundation, for example, for management accounting, or even quality management, rather than only on the process level, but also on a bit of a domain level, I think we could get great results and get that capability structure as a really central structure and viewpoint for the organization, rather than having 20 different kinds of looking at the organization, which makes it difficult to compare and integrate them with each other. So, I think that is also, there's a lot of new applications, I think, we're doing research into how we can help with digital transformation, that we published some things on, it's also a topic in the book, so yeah, I see a lot of potential, I've heard from, for example, people who work in security architecture, telling me, okay, I'm using now capability structures to find out how to roll out my security measures and so on, so I think there is a lot of opportunity there, and I think the first phase is getting people to build the right structure, start applying the base analysis methods, I would say, but then I think there's a lot more that can be done with it, so looking forward to it.

Scott:

If listeners want to learn more about you, about CVM, or your book, where should they go?

Jonas:

So, we have the website for everything with the book, and also the trainings and the services, www.capmap.org, so that will be CAPMAP with a C, short for capability, and there's also a link to our academic research for the audience, I would say, and other than that, obviously, I'm present and active on media like LinkedIn for the academic circles, I'm on ResearchGate, so people can reach out if they want to, and surely the website is a good place to start, it also contains additional materials, some of the models in the book as a PDF available, so that it's a bit easier to look at the models, there's also a starter set, I would say, that will help you to start building the map and so on, so there's a lot of things that I can offer on the website next to the book that will help people getting started with CVM.

Scott:

Great, well, we'll put those in the show notes so that it's easy for people to access, and Jonas, it's been a real pleasure having you on the show, I really appreciate the insights that you shared, and the thoughtfulness behind your work. Thanks for taking the time to walk us through your journey, it's been both valuable and inspiring.

Jonas:

Thanks, Scott, for having me, and as always, it's been a pleasure talking to you.

Scott:

As we wrap up this episode of Entrepreneur to Author, remember this, now is the time, time to write, time to publish, and time to grow. I'm Scott McMillan, until next time.